Local Black Lists and how to get off of them

So if you are planning to get a server and setup your own mail services on it you might run into some black lists out there. Now many people think that you get placed on a black list because you did something bad. Yes, that is how they are supposed to work. Check out the two links below that check exactly those types of lists.

The lists I am talking about are no such beasts. My theory is that some ISPs blacklist any IP address (or range) they haven't received mail from in "X number of years" in the theory that someday it could pop up and start spewing spam. So block it and never have to worry about it. If someone legit pops up, make them jump through a few hoops to prove they aren't a spam ba$-tard, and we white list them. Great system if it works. Horrible system if you can't operate it correctly. You can see below who falls into which camp.

To start, any IP address you are given you should check against sites that check Internet blacklists for you.

Kloth.net has one
MXToolbox has one as well

Even though you might not appear on any of these lists (the two servers I own don't). You might still be blocked by ISP local black lists. How they come up with them, not a clue. Do you have a clue? Drop us a line.

Companies that have local black lists

HotMail.com - List discovered 7/26/07 | Status: Unknown
So I sent a message into hotmail from both HandyNerds and Best4Men and neither of them showed up. I sent an e-mail from Yahoo into Hotmail and it arrived immediatly. The messages that were sent from my domains were accepted by hotmail's MX records, but what happened after that is anybody's guess.
Unlike Yahoo's system that tells you the message is deferred and where to go to fix it, Hotmail's system just eats the message. Having an account on hotmail, I tried to find the "Help" button, but there wasn't one. I have to say that in this respect Yahoo does a great job, I've actually had 2 or 3 issues, and each time I actually get a human response to my questions. I like that.
So I went ahead and filled in a feedback form on the hotmail site that let them know I couldn't receive mail from either place. We'll see what happens.
8/6/07Well I don't know what ever happened to that feedback form. So I tried this whole ordeal again. This time I put my domain in the "allowed domains" setting of the e-mail account. Still I couldn't get a message through. So this time I found a little bit more attractive tech support form and filled it out.
```
Thank you for contactingWindows Live Hotmail
E-mail Support


Thank you for submitting your issue to Support.

Your Support Ticket Number:1041240829

For reference, please print this page or write down your support ticket number. Use this number when communicating with Support about this issue.


To make sure that you can receive a reply from Microsoft, add the "microsoft.com" domain to your e-mail "safe list". If you do not receive a response in your "inbox" within 24 hours, check your "bulk mail" or "junk mail" folders.
```
One thing I did notice is that even in their help file they mention SenderID records. I'm not sure if they are tossing mail out based on this or not. It looks like I need to put SenderID (MS) and DomainKeys (Yahoo) on my todo list. Ugh.
I'll keep you updated.
Yahoo.com - List discovered 7/26/07 | Status: Works (kind of)
We sent a message to one of their users and it got a temporary defer message. In the message it lists a URL for the mail admin to visit. That site lists a few scenarios for the Mail Server Owner to go through. I picked the "Own your one mail server" option.
It had quite a few good questions just as "do a traceroute from your server to ours" and "list the IP addresses used to send mail". Questions obviously written by someone who knows mail & networks. So this morning I filled out the form, and sent it in. I got a reply back within a few minutes saying that the form had been submitted, and someone will get back to me within 48 hours. We'll keep you updated!
1. Wow. About 90 minutes later (my estimate) I forced the queue and all the messages went through. Either someone is really on the ball over at Yahoo, or it is an automated whitelist / grey list system. Either way. Cool. My messages did end up in the spam folder though. I looked at the incoming header, and it appears that Yahoo did a domainkeys lookup, and found a neutral entry. At this point, I don't have domain keys setup, so I can understand that.
2. My next task is to install domainkeys for my domains and see if I can't get myself out of the spam folder.
OptOnline.net - List discovered 8/4/07 | Status: Off Private Blacklist 10/8/07:
```
SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO::
    host mx1.optonline.net [167.206.4.77]: 550 5.7.1  Your mail from IP 71.6.135.117
was rejected. We can't currently accept your message. :
    USERNAMEptonline.net
```
I couldn't find any mention of me being on a black list, so I tried sending mail from the same domain but a different mail server and it went through just fine. So I figure it must be my IP address. So I find a contact technical support page, and I tell them that I am trying to send mail to one of their users and I seem to be blocked. I got this as a response webpage to that submittal:
```
Your Question has been Submitted
The reference number for your question is '070804-000254'.

You should receive a response by email from our support department within three (3) business days.
```
------------------- So I have received responses. Several of them in fact. They are getting pretty long, so I will summarize. First they told me that I need to send them a bounce message. I had already done that, but I did it again.
Then they told me that I was on large black lists. I was outraged at this. They referred me to: http://www.optonline.net/mailblocking
This is actually a pretty decent policy. I checked the 3 lists menioned, and I wasn't on any of them. Then I got this message from Loriann H:
```
Response (Loriann H) - 08/10/2007 10:48 PM
Dear pr07@best4men.com:

   Thank you for contacting Optimum Online regarding your question about mail
server. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you and will be
happy to assist.

   This IP address is positively and neutrally blacklisted at several sites located
at http://openrbl.org/client/#71.6.135.117.  This is an offset of the
http://njabl.org/cgi-bin/lookup.cgi?query=71.6.135.117 site found when you choose
the list to link other sites related to it.  In order to send mail to our
recipients, this would need to be corrected by whoever is in charge of your mail
server.  If you feel this is incorrect, please call in so that we can investigate
and escalate this issue if necessary.  The links below provide several contact
methods.

For additional information, please feel free to review our FAQ located at
http://www.optimum.com/support . If you require further assistance you may contact
us via:
 
          Email: http://optimum.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/optimum.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php
 
          Live Support: http://ool.hopto.org
 
          Phone: http://www.optimum.com/support/phone_list.jsp
```
Ok, so I am listed at one black list in the openrbl.org URL. You know what, so are the other 127 hosts in my subnet. Want to know what else? So is the MX for the domain you are looking at right now. Oddly enough, this domain is getting through. When will people stop black listing an entire subnet just because one IP address goes haywire. I'm not sure what the person meant by "This is an offset .... link other site related to it." I have read and re-read that statment and still can't figure it out.
So I did as they said, and I tried calling. When you go to the phone page you are met with a TON of different phone numbers. I finally called one, and got through to a VERY nice customer support person.
The first response is one that I am used to (Thanks COX!) which was "You need to be a customer, have the customer call." My thought once again is that 1. The customer doesn't know they have a problem. 2. How many customers even know how black lists work, how to get off of them, and what an MX record is. Having cable modem customers call is just plain silly.
Once this customer service person understood this, she said she would forward the message onto the e-mail department for review. I sent her all of the information from the previous correspondance and she forwarded it for me. It is now 8/10/07 and this has been a problem for 6 days now. She will return on Tuesday and let me know if there was any status change.
At the same time I have replied to Loriann H's message letting her know that these are just excuses, that OptOnLine isn't even using the 1 BL that I am listed in, because HandyNerds is listed in the same list, and it works, and that there are many numbers, and none of the numbers know anything about incident numbers.

2007-08-13
Wow, this just keeps getting more painful. Ok, so I sent back that message, and I got a reply stating that I was indeed on a blacklist as one of the technicians earlier stated. This blacklist is known as APEWS_L2. Want to know why no one uses this black list? It is because it blocks out entire subnets for one bad IP.
Ok, so I contact the helpdesk at Cari.Net. They said they would look into it. Not sure if they did or not. The funny thing about this, is that OptOnline themselves are on this black list. The one black list they are giving me so much grief over, they are on themselves!
http://openrbl.org/client/#167.206.4.79
http://openrbl.org/client/#167.206.4.77
I don't really know what to do at this point. They should technically be refusing mail from themselves. They are using black lists that I am not on, but still saying that I am getting a bounce message (which I am not) saying I am on a blacklist.

2007-08-14
So today I get this message:
```
The technician contacted the engineers department (his phrasing, not mine).  I
was told that we are not blocking you internally as you suspected.  I was told
that you are being black listed; please check the following link,
http://sendersupport.senderscore.net.
```
2007-10-16
So it says in their messages that if you don't reply within 14 days, that the ticket will be closed. So all I did was to make sure that something happened at least every 14 days. I think after a while they saw this 2 month old ticket in their queue and wanted to get rid of it. So early in October I get this e-mail that says that someone talked to someone in security, and found out that there is in fact an internal black list. In order to get off of it, I have to e-mail abuse@ the company. Using my other mail server (because I am black listed remember) I send them a message. They send it to postmaster. A few days after that I get a message that says that I will be removed by the end of the business day. And you know what? I was.
It took about 2 months, and a lot of convincing, but I finally got off the list.
I really don't mind the internal blacklists, I mean it is their right, and it does some good. But education within the organization is paramount. Let your people know about this so that when someone like me comes knocking, I'm not told that I am being blocked because I'm on "Tom Sinkerpan's Blacklist". So I went to check out this website. You can get a sender score, and if you pass all their tests and are still being blocked, you can fill out a form, and they will tell you what is happening. So I checked the best4men.com MX as well as the HandyNerds.com MX and they both come back clean. They actually come back with a "We don't know anything about this site." This is because I don't send MOUNDS of e-mail.
So one server still gets through to OptOnline and one doesn't. They still insist that they don't have in internal black list, but I still don't buy it.
SBCGlobal.net - List discovered 4/4/07 | Status: Removed 4/6/07
Send a message to one of their users and you will get a bounce back if you are on their black list. In that bounce message they will tell you how to get off the list. Do what they say, and you should be able to send mail within a few days. You won't get any kind of a message telling you that you have been removed. So just keep trying.
Earthlink.net and netcom.com - List discovered 4/15/07 | Status: Removed 4/16/07
Same as above. You will get a bounce message with instructions. Follow them. I did this on 20070415 (the day I am writing this) which was a Sunday night. By Monday morning, I had a message in my inbox indicating I was off their list and messages flowed through their system. Nice work!
Cox.Net - List discovered 4/4/07 | Status: Removed 4/19/07
Best of luck to you brother. I have seen addresses such as thisisnotspam@cox.net unblock.requests@cox.net and abuse@cox.net . I have called Cox to get some answers. I have been blocked usually because I am not a Cox.net subscriber. Although I was told by one guy named Dave that my domain was on a CIA Domain black list, so that is why Cox was blocking it.
I finally found a great friend who is a Cox.Net subscriber to call this one in. So far...
1. You are on a CIA Domain Blacklist (Dave couldn't tell me where this list was, or how to check it. I think he had just watched the Good Shepard and needed some excitement in his life)
2. It is an outlook problem (he wasn't using outlook)
3. E-mail thisisnotspam@cox.net (he did that, no luck)
4. The server the mail is coming from is blocking it (Um, if my mail server was blocking it, we wouldn't be having this conversation)
5. It says the message is spam (Actually that is spam assassin on my server scanning outbound messages and it specifically says that it is not spam -1.3 score)
6. Your IP appears on several blacklists (That would be the IP of the machine I am accessing webmail from, and since it is dynamic, etc. yeah, it probably is. But the MX isn't)
7. I typed it into our blacklist checker, and it isn't there, we aren't black listing it. ( SMTP error from remote mail server after initial connection: host mx.west.cox.net [68.6.19.3]: 554 fed1rmimpi04.cox.net IMP 71.6.135.117 is locally blacklisted Says differently now doesn't it
8. The funny thing is that their MX is sending mail to my MX. You would think that if the ISP was sending mail into my MX that my mail server might be legitimate.
So we are now going on 2 weeks trying to get off this local black list. So if you have better luck, let me know what the magic sauce is, because I sure haven't found it yet.
Update! I have just been removed from their blacklist. I'm not going to publish the name of the gentleman who notified me of it, as it would just serve to get him more spam. But here is what finally happened. I got a customer to call and talk to them. We went past first line. Then we got to tier 2 support. They made a ticket and passed it to "Tech-Ops" who then passed it to the e-mail team. That was on 4/16. I called in today and there wasn't any activity. I e-mailed postmaster, abuse, thisisnotspam, and unblick.lists one last time with only the error, and I got off. Maybe my previous e-mails were too wordy? Not sure. But I'm off, and I am now sending Cox.Net subscribers e-mail. YAY!
Gmail.com
They don't have a black list, but they are using SPF to determine the riskiness of your mail. So if you haven't setup SPF for your domain yet you might want to look into it. This webpage looks a little ugly because it doesn't wrap properly, but it is great tool to help you create an SPF record for your domain.

Are there more out there?

If you know of other ISPs that are doing things like this, let me know. I'll try to find a user and send some mail, and report back what it took to get off their list.

Why am I doing all of this?

I think local blacklists are fine to a certain extent. Sure there is a huge debate about them, and many people hate them. However, if you provide a simple way to prove your worthiness and get removed, then I don't think they are that bad. Those lists that require you to pay money to be removed, or ask you to do insane things I think is wrong. Or anyone who blocks an entire subnet becuase of one bad apple (in a static IP pool) is a little too extremist for my tastes. Also those companies that can't seem to operate their own black list seems just a bit scary. However, companies like SBC and Earthlink that have a way to get off their list, more power to you, you are fighting a tough spam battle as we all are.

So why am I not giving up? Well I just started my own company called Best4Men where we find the best products for guys, and sell them. Want to treat yourself to a great shave? Need to smell better? Need a father's day gift? Maybe you just have a Man question (check out "The Club") stop by, and check us out. Thanks for reading all the way to the bottom!